Wednesday, November 23, 2005

Thanksgiving and God.

Happy Thanksgiving.

Here is something from the original proclamation that should be read by every member of the ACLU, the PC crowd and atheists who are constantly complaining about references to God in public discourse. The same crowd who wants to seculerize these United States to a point where the mere mention of God would be punishable by law.

"Do hereby recommend to the inhabitants of these States in general, to observe, and request the several States to interpose their authority in appointing and commanding the observation of THURSDAY the twenty-eight day of NOVEMBER next, as a day of solemn THANKSGIVING to GOD for all his mercies: and they do further recommend to all ranks, to testify to their gratitude to GOD for his goodness, by a cheerful obedience of his laws, and by promoting, each in his station, and by his influence, the practice of true and undefiled religion, which is the great foundation of public prosperity and national happiness.
Done in Congress, at Philadelphia, the eleveth day of October, in the year of our LORD one thousand seven hundred and eighty-two, and of our Sovereignty and Independence, the seventh."


Steve said...

Roman - First, the same founding father's your so fond of held black people as 3/5 of a person and denied women the right to vote. They also didn't believe christians without property could vote, or that people should elect politicians in a primary, rather they are appointed by political parties. So lets not pretend that anyone actually believes being a founding father gives you the right to tell people in 2005 what is moral, right, just, or even Christian.

But the founding fathers were brilliant for their time, and they gave us so much to be thankful for, including a constitution that is living and breathing. They gave us a government which believes that a tyrannical government is dangerous and that FREEDOM is the basic right of all persons. That the pursuit of happiness is the right of all people, whatever their faith or background.

The Supreme Court of the United States has held that in accordance with these principles, and with the evolving sense of justice and morality that freedom of religion must include freedom from religion. Just as the pilgrims fled nations which demanded their conversion to a particular strand of Christianity, we cannot here demand that people convert to whatever government is in power.

If you're not afraid of one nation under god, perhaps one day we will say "One nation under Vishnu" or "One nation under God." Your children have the right to learn about your faith from you, not the government, not school, and not the pledge of allegiance. Good Americans are not necessarily Christian Americans, sorry to say.

So when you are thankful tomorrow, you should remember that it is secularism, as much as anything elwse, that Islamic fundamentalist states such as Iran, hate so much.

God Bless Secularism, and take that Osama.

roman said...

Thank you for stopping by my blog.
You're always welcome.
The reason I really admire this proclamation is because the word "God" is mentioned instead of Jesus Christ, Budha, Allah, Vishnu/Brahma/Shiva, or any other specific deity. So even back in 1782 they were wise enough to use the generic term.
I agree that they were not beacons of morality if judged by today's standards of ethics but they were appropriately ethical and moral for their specific era.
Two hundred years from now, in 2205, the average person will read about us and gasp with outrage at our current mores. Eating the flesh of dead animals, imbibing in alcohol and partaking of dangerous/harmful practices such as smoking and chewing tobacco.
The term "God", IMHO, can mean any deity and I believe that it does not convey any sense of specificity.
It is, however, fully appropriate in its current usage as a "national tradition" and conveys the historical character of the nation.
I see the current attempts by the ACLU and atheist groups to tip the balance over to an extreme form of secularism and to ultimately make any religious reference or speech unlawful. It is very evident that the cultural norms of this nation are in transition and the direction is intolerance to religious expression which was once considered familiar and commonplace to average citizens.
You have stated that "we cannot here demand that people convert to whatever government is in power".
Since we have a Democratic Republic
and not a Judeo/Christian Republic, there is little chance of that happening.
It's the steady erosion of any religious reference even when it is part of our nation's heritage which is alarming. Take away our traditions forged over the last two hundred years and will this still be the same "one nation under God"?
I do take your point about Iran and secularism. Thank God for the secular Turkish government's ability to maintain harmony and balance even though they have an overwhelming Islamic populace.
They do not attempt to strip their citizens' rights to religious expression and have kept this balance for centuries thus becoming a bulwark against the spread of Islamic Jihad.
I will thank God tomorrow for being blessed to be living in this the greatest nation to ever have existed on this planet.

I hope I snag one of those turkey legs before the rest of the clan gets their mits on them.

Steve said...

Roman - I see your point, however i feel that Freedom OF religion must entail freedom FROM religion.

God doesn't want people to believe in him because of a blind allegiance in the morning, and greedy exchanges of currency. Belief in God starts in the heart, not as part of a state religion.

Fahd Mirza said...

nice and informative blog you have there.

roman said...

"Belief in God starts in the heart, not as part of a state religion."
I could not have said it better myself.
The separation of mosque/church/temple (any house of worship) and the state should always be a goal to strive for.
Logically, I cannot conceive of a perfect state of separation because each of us thinking beings
worships his creator in different degrees of intensity. There will always be conflict between the "believers" and "non-believers", it is only how each of us responds to encroachments from either side which truly will test our virtue.
In my post, I wanted to convey the idea that one cannot just stifle the religious traditions which were the basis of this country's origin. Terms like "In God we Trust" might as well mean "In Allah
we Trust". IMHO, these terms are not mutually exclusive. Allah and God are one and the same.
It is only some corrupt "religious practitioners" who emphasise the culture difference and hence cause strife.
Let's not re-write history by outlawing traditional and long-standing expressions of the predominant faith of this nation.
There is such a broad spectrum of religious beliefs here currently that the chance of the USA declaring a "state religion" is miniscule at best.

roman said...

Fahd Mirza.
Thank you for stopping by my site.
I hope you, or your loved ones, were not affected by the recent earthquake in the north.

pink panda said...

another statuatory holiday wouldnt go down astray over here in nz!

samrina said...

first thnx for the comments infect a question that u left at my blog i answered it there... :)
must say ur blog is also an interesting one
takecare n have a nice time ahead :)

roman said...

Thank you for stopping by my site.
I love holidays, especially the kind where one gets paid for the day. The more the better. I heard that in countries like France and Germany, workers get 8+ weeks of paid vacations per year. The most I ever got was three weeks. I'm back down to two weeks, so days off are very precious to me.

roman said...

Thank you for visiting my site.
You are always welcome.

Alex Zhao said...

Let's thank God for the eventual destruction of all of the native Indian civilizations.

Vman said...

Yeah, the colonists passed out blankets infected with smallpox to the Indians.

pink panda said...

so i dont really know much about the whole relationship between native americans and americans. is it a good one these days? i know in the past it wasnt...

i find it interesting coz in new zealand there is a similar history of native people being colonised by the english, & problems that it caused which are still being resolved today.

Little Girl in a Black Apron said...

just like one every other U.S blog i have read i am going to say.. god i love pumpkin pie *dribble*

roman said...

It is tragic that the native peoples of many lands, not only here in the USA, were so badly mistreated. We can't undo what has already been done in the past.
At least there is some movement now by certain indian tribes to better their lives by using their "special status" as a benefit. The Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun casino complexes in Connecticut have made these tribes wealthy beyond imagination. I'm sure that these indian run casinos are distributed all over the states and Canada. I know that this in no way justifies the past but at least its a small measure of belated justice.

roman said...

Hi Pink Panda and Annika,
Welcome to our friends from "down under and over to the right" geographically speaking.
We here in the states have this "guilt" about what happened to the native people at the hands of the European colonists. We keep beating ourselves up every Thanksgiving holiday over it. Instead of just enjoying it as a day of rest and being grateful for our way of life, some want this holiday to be a day of atonement for our past historical "sins". I can only speak for myself but I refuse to bow to these "guilt" panderers. We cannot change the past and no one alive today had any part in what transpired so many years ago. Its time to move on.

roman said...

Yes there was one incident where the British Army used "germ warfare". In no way was it a widespread practice.
Here is an excerp of that incident from the historical records...

"On at least one occasion, germ warfare was attempted by the British Army under Jeffrey Amherst when two smallpox-infected blankets were deliberately given to representatives of the besieging Delawares Indians during Pontiac's Rebellion in 1763. That Amherst intended to spread the disease to the natives is not doubted by historians; whether or not the attempt succeeded is a matter of debate."

This is the one and only time in recorded history that it was done. A systomatic practice? I think not. Another urban legend (fiction) that gains credibility only because it keeps getting repeated over and over.

3:40 PM

Fahd Mirza said...

thnx for dropping by to my blog.

Dr Kuha said...

Hmm... Well, i will say this about politics and religion: The first amendment guarrantees freedom from a state religion... So basically, this means that the constitution acknowledges that the Judeo/Christian ideology is not absolute. Therefore, things like the ten commandments, and quoting bible verses have no place in politics. It is entirely possible to build a logical argument for morality without invoking a deity, and since this is the only common ground we're every going to have, then this is what we have to use. God has no place in politics.

Roman- I don't think that in 2205, people will be appalled about people using alcohol and tobacco (I would never want to live without beer), but they will be appalled at all the absurd bickering and bipartisan garble that gets spattered all over the place. It's the way we do things, exploiting entire nations of poor people so we can have cheap plastic crap that we don't even really care about. Exporting the proletariat to east asia or some such thing.

And about the indian thing: I live in a town that is situated between two of the poorest, most miserable reservations in the entire country. Racial tension is actually pretty high here and always has been. I have a few indian friends, but they are devastatingly marginalized. The only progress we've made on the indian issue in many places is sweeping them under the rug. I'm sure you've heard about the incident at Red Lake High School. That's where I live.

I could say more, but this is just a few comments here and there about what I read here.

Anonymous said...

When all is said and done the most important thing to me is that my culture, customs and traditions are being wiped away. I do not say you have to believe or partake of them. You should respect them as you should respect others. Why must one idea have to give way for another? As so called educated and intelligent people how is it that tolerance is so discriminative? I am told that I must tolerate diversity and I say yes that is only fair. Yet after so much tolerance of diversity I have pushed myself right into a new minority. I do not speak just of religion. I speak of every custom, tradition and my very culture. I am a middle aged white Christian. I must deal in business with people who can't speak my language which is this county's language (English). I must pay taxes to pay for education (primary and secondary), housing, food and even maybe my job for illegal and legal immigrants. Have they changed the law that immigrants have no rights until they become citizens?? That is why an immigrant is supposed to want to become a citizen. Now there are those (not just immigrants but the far left who want to take away my rights.
Why it is this country’s pendulum has to swing to the far right or the far left but cannot seem to come to rest in the middle? I believe this is where most Americans want to be. This is where most can come to agreement. The average American is good, kind and tolerant. We just don't want to be push around and taken advantage of and that is what is happening today in all aspects of daily life. I say it must stop or we will have another revolution on our hands. I hear major complaints every day from average American citizens. They are frightened and that is not a good thing.

Thank you for taking time to read my views.
Oh, and Merry Christmas.

roman said...


"They are frightened and that is not a good thing."

I know exactly what you mean. It seems that the everyday aspects of our lives are changing by the minute. First, we're asked to tolerate diversity and being understanding sorts, we do. Then we're asked to "tone down" the very aspects of our lives that identify us as Americans. Things like our historical traditions (God, the flag and patriotism) are no longer in vogue. Then we're asked to drop all references to our Judeo/Christian heritage by changing the wording in our pledges and oaths. It's a steady but relentless erosion of our very identity. Special interest groups are chipping away at what made this country great in order to make it, at best, mediocre.
I'm waiting for the new wording to that song that Kate Smith occasionately liked to sing
" --- bless America, land that I love. Stand beside her, and guide"
Filling in the blank may become a crime someday.
Oh, and Merry Christmas to you. You are welcome anytime.

5:09 PM

Posted to Thanksgiving and God.

Anonymous said...

For anyone who may be reading this I would like to use an analogy of being invited into someone’s home. Would you be respectful of the customs and traditions? Would you take advantage of them and their family members? I don’t think so. I know I wouldn’t. In the same instance would you want someone to come into your home and disrespect your customs and traditions and/or take advantage of you and yours?? Of course not. Well this is how I feel about The USA. It is my home and my family. I would not go to another country and disrespect it’s ways. When in Rome!!!

So, why do people think it is ok to come into my home and disrespect me and mine without a second thought. If you don’t like my home all you have to do is leave.
A short comment this time.
Hope you will respond.


roman said...


"If you don’t like my home all you have to do is leave."

It seems like unwelcome guests never leave on their own and that's the problem. You have probably heard of the car burnings in France by immigrants complaining about how they are being treated by the French natives. Notice that even though they hate their living conditions there, they do not leave and go back to the countries where they came from originally.
Why? Because its even worse in the
country where they came from. Instead they riot in the streets and set 28,000 cars on fire and set fires to storefronts. How this will help their cause is anybody's guess.
These incidents are a warning to us here in the USA. In my oppinion, anybody who wants to come and live here in the US must learn to speak English, must learn something about our history, customs and traditions and above all must respect our way of life.
I firmly believe that granting privileges to newcomers has gone way too far. So far, in fact, that it's now at the expense of our way of life. Now these same groups of newcomers want to make changes which suit their lifestyles at our expense.
It is time that the US immigration policies are reviewed and changed so that OUR concerns are addressed and not just the newcomers.